In this episode, Tim is joined by metaverse expert Hrish Lotlikar, the Co-founder and CEO of SuperWorld, to discuss how technology is bringing together our physical and virtual lives. SuperWorld is an augmented reality virtual platform that allows users and brands to create, discover and monetize content.
During the course of their conversation, Tim and Hrish discuss the state of the metaverse, how to monetize virtual real estate, and how we will soon be able to discover immersive events through virtual geographic exploration.
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Tim - 00:00:02: This is Tim Delhaes, and you're listening to the DAO Talks podcast. In each episode, you'll hear me talk to builders and makers of Web3. Together, we'll be exploring our multichain future, share personal stories, and discuss how we are investing, experimenting, and failing with the startups that define the future. So, join me on this journey of discovery, as I chat with its leaders, change makers, and misfits about tech, life, the universe, and everything. Today I'm talking to Hrish. Hrish is a fellow world nomadic and the founder of SuperWorld. So we're going to be talking about the death of the Metaverse, or not augmented reality and in depth about how we can buy and sell land in New York City like Madison Square Garden, sell tickets there, build fantasy worlds around it, and explore the future of the Metaverse. Hrish, SuperWorld, how are you?
Hrish - 00:01:06: I'm great. So awesome to be here, Tim. Thanks so much for having me.
Tim - 00:01:10: No, thanks for having you. Where are you these days?
Hrish - 00:01:12: So as we discuss, I'm globally nomadic, so I can be anywhere in the world all the time. We live all over the world, but today I'm in Miami, and generally this year in Miami Beach.
Tim - 00:01:24: Globally nomadic. Great term. Like, one of my buddies at work, he couldn't kind of label it, and he called it a perpetual traveler, so I was like, okay, globally nomadic. That's great. I know you said this. You're moving quite a lot. You got two kids, though. They've been in how many countries?
Hrish - 00:01:40: My seven year old's already lived in 27. My wife and I have traveled a lot before that as well, so we've been to a lot of countries, but since having kids, I guess 27 now. We try to do like, a year each country just because she's in school.
Tim - 00:01:54: Very cool. And how long have you been in Miami? Where are you going next?
Hrish - 00:01:57: About a year and a half in Miami, and we were in Europe last summer, but then we came back to Miami to spend more time. But we're going to go to Spain, I think, next. We're still finalizing our decision, but we'll probably be in Europe.
Tim - 00:02:10: Yeah, try the area around Cadiz. It's really nice and relaxed. And I lived on the Canary Islands for over a year, warmest place. Also, it's cheap, got good surf there, got nice beaches. We can only recommend it traveling around this world or SuperWorld. Question what did I read the other day? The Metaverse is dead. You are somewhere in the SuperWorld or super meta world. Is it true? What's going on? Has the Metaverse failed to provide real world utility? Is this the end of the road or is it the beginning of the road? Tell us.
Hrish - 00:02:46: Yeah, I think that with any new technology, whether it's the Internet or phones that don't have keyboards or Blockchain or I'm just kind of thinking of different evolutions in consumer tech and what we've seen. I think I've heard people say that the Internet was dead and that the iPhone is never going to work because it needs a keyboard. Blockchain is dead and has no purpose. And I think the word Metaverse or the concept of the Metaverse similarly has this kind of nebulous definition. So it's easy to kind of say it's not working or is not going to work or something like that. But really the foundation of what the Metaverse is, is already happening at a very fast pace around us. I mean, this call is a testament to that, this Zoom call that we're on and the fact that we're talking about being global nomads. And that we have gone through a period of the last few years where we've all become a lot more virtual in our lives, whether it's on Zoom calls like this or maybe watching more Netflix or playing more video games or learning online, all of these things about being more online and also being physical. Meaning we talked about the Canary Islands already, and we've talked about different physical places that we both love in the world. We're basically realizing that our virtual lives and our physical lives are coming together in more and more ways. And the technology that comprises the Metaverse is really how do we put these things together? How does a Khan Academy and a physical school come together? How does an NFT ticket and a live event come together? How does the opportunity to do something like work more collaboratively using online means that supplement the live meeting with a colleague in a workplace setting, how does all those things work? And so the Metaverse is very alive and well. It's growing very fast. It's just that people's understanding of what it is, sometimes people think it's a game. It's one particular game that's doing well or not doing well. And a lot of people don't realize that this technology is we're in it already, and we're getting more and more involved in bringing our physical and virtual lives together.
Tim - 00:05:27: Very true. I had to laugh a little bit. I do remember the same headline in the newspaper. It said the Internet has failed. Right? And I thought back then, was that like 2001 or something? And after dot-com bubble burst and it's like, yeah, so what? Is it? Like we're going back to just TV and radio or how is that going to work? Right. Great. And I can tell, obviously, you're very passionate about connecting this “virtual world” with the kind of real physical world with virtual people with real people, real places with virtual places. So give us a rundown. Where does SuperWorld come from? What are you currently doing, and where is it going?
Hrish - 00:06:08: That's a great question. So SuperWorld is a virtual world that covers Earth. Prior to starting SuperWorld about seven years ago, I started a company called Rogue Initiative Studios, which is a film, television gaming, and virtual reality studio in hollywood. My co-founder produced Call of Duty:Modern Warfare series and Ghosts. And my production partner is Michael Bay, the action director. And at Rogue Initiative, we were focused on creating new original content franchises from film, television, interactive entertainment, immersive entertainment, all the way to amusement park rides and toys. And the idea there is all of that content is created in engines. Unreal engine unity engine. Right. You can create almost anything in an engine. And what happened was, about six years ago, Pokemon GO came out, right? Became this huge hit. People are running around the world looking for Pokemon, and a lot of people don't know, but that game was the fastest game in history to hit a billion dollars in revenue they did in seven months, right? And we thought back then, what if you love music or travel or history or education or you have a business that you want to promote? How can I enable you to have the same tools to be able to create, discover and monetize anything, anywhere, content anywhere in real world locations and enable you to be able to create a world, a virtual world on top of the real world that enabled your friends, your customers, your colleagues, et cetera. Whatever you're creating this for, to be able to see all of this content, to be able to create alongside you, and to be able to monetize in real world locations. And then what we decided was, how could we integrate Web3 into that? So if in Pokemon, all the monetization is happening in real world locations, people are running into a park and clicking, and that billion dollars of revenue happens in these locations, what if we could use Web3 to enable you to own the geospatial real estate around you in real world locations? So can you own downtown Madrid or London or Paris or New York or these locations where you have a business or locations that you love in the Canary Islands or places that you go on vacation? How could you have exposure to virtual real estate in real world locations? You could create content there. But the caveat is you could activate monetization from everything that happens there, even things that you're not directly doing any activity that's happening in those locations. And so that was the vision of Superworld is how could you, again create, discover and monetize anything anywhere and own the world around you?
Tim - 00:08:56: Give me the people that are listening in a good example of that.
Hrish - 00:09:02: Yes. So, example is I can kind of go through the user journey for a lot of people in this superworld. And we're going after the mainstream audience. And I know the audience here is probably more connected to blockchain and decentralization and is interested in these topics. And that's great because, again, a lot of the people that are most knowledgeable about these technologies understand what we're doing. But just for the sake of this example, I want to show you kind of what the mainstream thinks, right? So the mainstream person is still trying to understand NFTs. They're still trying to understand what's the difference between..
Tim - 00:09:41: I'm still trying to understand it, man.
Hrish - 00:09:44: I know, right? I was telling someone this yesterday. I was telling her that, hey, the mainstream is still trying to understand the Blockchain. And I said the same exact thing. Hey, we're all trying to understand blockchain. And the technology keeps getting faster and improving. And that's the beauty of it, too. The smartest people in the world are building this technology, and it's hard to keep up. And so the mainstream is still trying to figure out what the word NFT means and whether they should be getting into it. And I would say the same for augmented reality or virtual reality. And as you discussed earlier, the Metaverse. What is the Metaverse? Is it alive? Is it dead? Is it something I should be thinking about? How do I get in? And so they have these questions, but when they come to SuperWorld, they might not know those things, but they know where they live. They know where they have a business. They know where they, like, going on vacations. They know these places in the world. So they come to SuperWorld and they buy these locations. And now, guess what? They have a wallet, and they have crypto. Now they want to know, how can they make NFTs? How can they sell an NFT or a digital asset for a product they're making or maybe a ticket to an event they're having? How can they create AR content and put it in a real world location so people can discover it? How can they get into VR or how can they get into DeFi or create a DAO or go into another virtual world? And so what we've effectively created for them is this gateway to the Metaverse, right? And so we find that our customers, once they understand what we're building and you can own the world around you. They come and they buy these places they're excited about, and then we give them the tools to hey, you can create an NFT. And this is how you do it, and you can sell it, and this is why you want to do it. This is how you can engage with your customers using Web3. This is how you can use augmented reality from your phone and upload content or upload a GLB file, 3Dfile to a real world location and how that could be discoverable and how you'd want to maybe create a dow with your community and how you could use that dow to support a mission or cause and create a community around. That how you can create an event and place that event in the real world. So for the event, I'll example, I'll go into that just because it's one of our first strategic initiatives. So let's say, for example, you're doing a live event. And that event is happening at a stadium. And it's a big sports event. And we have a very big partner that we're going to be announcing very soon that does lots and lots of events around the world. And so if I come to SuperWorld and I buy a ticket to that sports event at the stadium in your city that generates revenue. And what if you own the land in SuperWorld encompassing that stadium? Well, then you're going to be activating revenue from that ticket sale. You don't own the physical stadium in the real world, but you own the stadium in SuperWorld. You've bought the land encompassing that stadium in SuperWorld. And so you're going to be able to generate revenue from ticket sales that are being made digitally at that location.
Tim - 00:13:00: Give me an example. So when you take this with Invent, you have a partner. What's happening there? Give it a real concert, run through the different roles. Give us the dynamics.
Hrish - 00:13:13: Yeah. So let's go through the more detailed user journey on that one. So you come to the SuperWorld map and you're like, hey, I'm going to check out what's happening in New York. You look at the map and you look at a number of events that are happening on the Superworld map. You see a concert that's happening at Madison Square Garden, right. Your favorite artist.
Tim - 00:13:35: Okay, let me interrupt you there because I want to run through this. So how do I discover the concert? Because I stumble over it? Because I go to Madison Square Garden on the location? Or how did I realize that there is an event happened through virtual geographic exploration? Is that the way to get there?
Hrish - 00:13:52: Yeah. So two ways. One, it's virtual geographic exploration, meaning you're in New York, so you're wanting to see what's happening in the place that you are around you on the map. So the interface that we're talking about right now is a map interface on our website. And to be clear, you could buy land, you could buy virtual real estate on the map. So you can own these places, but I'll get to that in a second. But in this case, you're looking for events that are happening, right. You find out that there's lots of events happening. There's a panel on the left on our website that shows you what all the upcoming events are, whether it's sports events, concerts, theater events, et cetera. Right? And this interface is actually going to populate very soon. So I'm giving you a little bit of alpha here. And so when you can find out what event you want to go to and that event happens to be, in this case, let's say at Madison Square Garden in Manhattan, and you go and buy a ticket to that event. Now, that's generating revenue from the ticket sale. And in this case, someone has bought the land where Madison Square Garden is, and they're going to be able to activate Monetization from that ticket sell revenue as well as so does SuperWorld, so they're able to become a stakeholder.
Tim - 00:15:11: So let me go through this, right? So from my end-user perspective, because I've been to Superworld, so I've seen it and see the thing how this is working with the event. So I see whatever Elton John is playing on, whatever, 20 March in Madison Square Garden, right? And I'm exploring this. Now, this would be a real ticket, right, would mean that the production company or organizer of Madison Square Garden in this case actually then goes and does what? Like, buys the Madison Square Garden or rents it or places an event there temporarily. But who am I buying the ticket from and how is that actually working?
Hrish - 00:15:52: Yeah, so there's two different parties here. Potentially, it could be the same party, right? But let's just say to make the example a bit more real life-oriented or how it would, I think, typically happen is you, Tim, are a fan of New York City, okay. And you come to SuperWorld per my previous user journey, you're like, hey, I don't know a lot about NFTs. I don't know a lot about AR/VR. I'm really curious about the Metaverse. How do I get in? You come to Superworld and you're like, you know what, I'm going to buy the land covering Madison Square Garden.
Tim - 00:16:29: How much is it going to cost me now? How much is it going for?
Hrish - 00:16:30: Right now, it's already bought, by the way. A lot of Manhattan is owned. There's a lot of great properties in Manhattan that are available. There's 64 billion properties in the world. So anyone who comes to SuperWorld can still acquire properties in great places. So it's a good time to buy. But Madison Square Garden specifically is probably repriced into the hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars. I don't have a quick feed on what it is, or it might not even be listed for resale. But if you wanted to buy it, the owner of it probably you'll have to negotiate with the owner.
Tim - 00:17:06: It's an open-market, could be whatever.
Hrish - 00:17:08: It could be whatever. Yeah, it's an NFT, so you have to buy it for whatever they want to sell it for you for. But the first user journey is that owner of the real estate, which is decoupled from the potential ways that it could monetize the owner of the real estate. Again, it's kind of like buying commercial real estate. You now own that area, right. And you are now a stakeholder on SuperWorld. You want to create ways that that area becomes more valuable, and you want to create content there. You want to basically, as a commercial real estate owner, if you owned a mall in the real world, you want to make sure people are coming to the mall. People are benefiting from the stores that are in the mall. Right. So same kind of analogy here. You're buying this virtual plot of land and you want to figure out how to monetize. So the first example of monetization that we've covered is events. Now there's another events company, let's say in this example, that has events all over the world. And some of their events are happening at Madison Square Garden. And what they do is they have a partnership with us to sell tickets to those events at Madison Square Garden. So now a third user comes to the SuperWorld and is like, hey, I want to see what's happening on the map in Manhattan. They look at Madison Square Garden because they realize that there's an Elton John concert there, as you mentioned, and they buy a ticket to that concert. Right. And so the ticket company has sold a ticket to one of our users. Superworld is getting paid a commission on that revenue. And the owner of Madison Square Garden, who owns the virtual real estate covering that location where the monetization happened, that owner is also able to benefit from the activation of that revenue that occurred from the ticket sale. But ticketing is one category, so it could be that someone is selling digital collectibles there. Right. So if, for example, you couldn't come to the game, but you wanted to buy a collectible, or maybe it's not a game, it's a fundraiser, and you can't join, but you want to join the DAO that the organizer has set up for people who are interested in the mission of the event. Right. So what we're doing is we're adding Immersive content to that location so you can view things in AR. You can view a live feed. You can make a decision whether you want to go to the event. If you're deciding between two events and maybe they already had started, you can view what's happening there live at the event and make your decision about which event to go to. You could buy a collectible. You could buy an NFT ticket. So it's Immersive tech and Web3 integration for events into a real world location.
Tim - 00:19:58: Just from a technical perspective. So when I buy a plot of land, this is an NFT?
Hrish - 00:20:02: That's right.
Tim - 00:20:03: Okay, so I'm then the landowner, and if somebody then wants to use my land, what happens there technically? Is this already on the blockchain? So what, I rent out my NFT where I give them houses technically built, this is all on chain or is it at some part moving option? Obviously, I imagine ticket sales are not going to be limited to NFT tickets. It's easy to integrate. But how is this working from a technology stack level here? Obviously, it starts with NFT on the blockchain, on the real estate level, and then from there up. How is this built?
Hrish - 00:20:37: Yeah, that's a great question. So you're exactly right. On the real estate level, we're built on Ethereum. But in terms of the monetization and content creation that can happen on top of the real estate level. Some of that could be decentralized, like NFT ticketing. But it doesn't have to be decentralized. It could be traditional ticketing, it could be AR content that is structured as a digital piece of content, or it could be AR content that's structured as an NFT on chain. Right. So on top of the real estate, you have flexibility as to do you want to do this with a centralized provider that might be creating monetization opportunities or more centralized, or you're working with a decentralized provider of features and monetization. It's very stackable. So it's an open stack kind of framework where on our side, what we want to do is enable our customers, whether they're landowners or whether they're content creators or event creators, in that example, to be able to have flexibility for how they can add monetization onto the platform and then how we can integrate into SuperWorld. And so it's a very open-framework in that sense.
Tim - 00:21:54: Great. So if I think about it like this, right? It's like Google Maps, which also has layers of information on top of it, right, to the geographic information. The difference really is that you're kind of selling pieces of the map and then the decision of what can be done on a plot of this real estate on the map is controlled by the owner of that real estate right, of that piece of the map. So one of the things that just popped into my mind where you were talking is that the challenge is when you look at, let's say maybe a year out, maybe ten years out, right. Let's say there's a lot of people and a lot of activity in SuperWorld. And when you look at what happens, obviously in things like Google Maps is there is conflict permanently with people trying to claim their business, right? Like competition and people setting up false information about a business. Right. About the competitors business. It starts with bad reviews, can do all sorts of things. And I think Google has to spend a significant effort on kind of doing due diligence on the information about who gets to control the information on the map. Right. How are you going to address that? How is that going? And I guess this somewhat goes into a governance question for the entire system. How is this solved? Nobody might care today, but I can also put up the Madison Square Garden and put up false information permanently. It's an open system, so nobody can restrict me and I can be pursuing all sorts of different interests, which ultimately can also damage the credibility of the entire platform. Right. How are you guys thinking about this here?
Hrish - 00:23:29: Yeah, awesome question either way. So the idea here is, one, to be clear, there's an infinite number of filters on the world. So if I come to New York City and let's say I'm in AR view, right? I'm looking around. I'm walking around the city. I could go into a fantasy city. It doesn't have to be New York. I can suddenly go, let me upload a GLB file of a City Escape, and it's now your favorite brand, and they've redone the whole city, but it's the real city I'm walking through. Or if I'm back on the map interface, which is what we were talking about before, where I'm looking at a map, like a Google map, right? I can also click on it and say, hey, I want to see what Tim wants me to see. And now you've decorated the map with all your favorite restaurants and your selections and tickets to events you're selling, and click on this and go to my podcast and buy this thing or join my DAO, right? You've personalized the map of the world with your content in real world locations, right? And by the way, that content on the map that you're putting there is also now available in augmented reality, too, on the mobile platform. So it's linked together. And so the answer to your question is, ultimately me as a user, it depends on what I want to see. Just like on Instagram. If you go on Instagram, just because someone's post something on Instagram doesn't mean you're going to see it depends on who you're following, what you want to see. And at the end of the day, whatever is there in the physical world, that's what's there. The data and information is driven by the user who wants to view the information. And we believe in data integrity, data sovereignty, data monetization for our users. So ultimately, the users control the experience of the world that they want to see.
Tim - 00:25:17: So what is the benefit that I'm getting as the landowner of it? Is that being a landowner in terms of one of multiple layers, or if you own Madison Square Garden and I create a fantasy world in New York, what relationship do you, as the landowner of Madison Square Garden, have to my virtual world that my kids may be using, what is the relationship there?
Hrish - 00:25:45: Okay, so if you own the land that covers Madison Square Garden, right? Like 0.01/0.01 longitude/latitude. So just to be clear, you're not buying Madison Square Garden. You're buying 0.01/0.01 longitude/latitude on the SuperWorld map covering that location, right? And if you own that location and your kids create a fantasy world, which is a game, let's say it's like a game, like Pokemon Go, but it's a game they've created, right, where they're selling some accessories as NFTs in real world locations. And let's say that land where Madison Square Garden is, is a hotspot because there's concerts there, and everyone who goes, they can sell right in the stadium to people that are looking at this fantasy world, right? So if you own the land there, you benefit from everything that your kids have built in that fantasy world, as well as what the concert tickets that are being sold there. You benefit from the infinite filters of content that can exist in that location.
Tim - 00:26:42: But as the landowner of Madison Square Garden, I rely on the what, authorization of my kids to show the offers there. That's why I'm trying to understand. So my kids built this fantasy world. Do my kids decide what offers show up or whatnot? So they can blend in and blend that out and they can say, hey, well, there's a ticket sale. We want to incorporate this and we want to show it in our world. Or they can say, no, you know what, we don't want to show this in the world. Doesn't matter because our game doesn't need it and they blend it out. Is that the way to think about it?
Hrish - 00:27:16: So the ticket sale example that I was giving you, there's two parts of that. So one is we could have a partner that has their own ticket and events application, and so they've come in with their own filter of the world, right? So that's their world, the ticket event world, right? And you can look around and see their events, but your kids are like, hey, we're built a fantasy world. And guess what? We want to do an event in this location, and it's a virtual event and we want to sell tickets to a virtual event, and it's going to take place in the location where Madison Square Garden is. Right now, they’re selling tickets. So, we have tools that a user that wants to create their own event and wants to use a self-service tool can use. And that self-service tool will incorporate the best of the technologies that we've incorporated with some of our bigger ticketing and event providers. So Immersive, tech integration, Web3 integration. So if your kids Are Like, hey, I want to sell this as an NFT ticket, or I just want to sell this as a traditional ticket, or I want to add AR content to this location, or I want to sell a collectible, or I want to get some other people Involved in this DAO that helps children's education or something, right? So they'll have tools to incorporate into their world as well. Or they can share ticketing and events from another world and share it in this location. If they benefit as a landowner too, if they're somehow a landowner in that location, they might benefit from other worlds and what's happening from those other filters of the world, right? So similar to you and me on Instagram, we might have our own personal Instagram account, but we might also have other Instagram accounts that we benefit from. We'll probably share content from those accounts. And similarly so if you own the land, you benefit from everything that happens there, right? If you own the land in a certain area, you could be like, hey, you know what? I'm not going to this concert, but I'm going to share everything that this one world does because they have a lot of awesome stuff going on. And I want to make sure that everyone in the world knows about this specific event or specific fantasy world that's being created on this land. So you as a landowner are very much part of the value creation that's happening in that location because you're either sharing content, you're creating content, you're letting the world know about all this stuff that's happening because you own the “commercial real estate”, the “virtual real estate” in this example.
Tim - 00:29:52: So in other words, like, the ticketing provider, for example, could not set up a ticketing system for commercial use on a specific geographic location in the system that's owned by somebody else. You're going to need that person's permission. Is that how this in the end goes? Because I'm trying to imagine this, right? Like, my kids build this virtual world and then they go this Madison Square Garden. I can obviously, since the virtual world put a ticketing system that's virtually there, right? I don't need to ask anyone. I'm just there because I'm designing this. But in order to make it work for transactions and connect to a ticketing system, those ticketing systems require permission from that NFT holder to actually work there. Because I'm just wondering how the landowner controls the use of the real estate across these different layers, right, that are being built. And it seems to me like that the creative aspect of it, the actual environmental augmented design can be done by anyone who's building their own layer, but there's a restrictive use for certain commercial transactions or how do I imagine that?
Hrish - 00:31:04: So as a landowner, you're not controlling the other people that are creating things there. You're not controlling anything in that regard. You're just benefiting and you're activating monetization. So what I mean by that is you're able to create potential opportunities to facilitate transactions for happening on your property, right? Because like I explained to you, you can share things, you can contribute. You're very much part of this ecosystem in this location. You're a stakeholder there, right? But other people can create monetization. Other people can add things and we'll have those things vertically integrated into the SuperWorld product, right? So whether it's a tool to help you sell tickets or an actual filter on the world that provides the whole solution and is already selling tickets as an example. So it'll be a multiple kind of approaches for any filter. A filter can use our tools as well as can bring tools to the table externally that we just integrate into the system. Ultimately, what we want is landowners to again with other stakeholders, like a creator as a stakeholder in this example, a landowner is a stakeholder and you could have other collaborators, like an influencer, get involved in a transaction, help promote things as well and benefit from that. We're building a world where what we want to do is empower the creator economy to use these tools to build a livelihood in different ways for them.
Tim - 00:32:39: This is super exciting. I'm definitely going to take some time and play through this, and you can bet on hearing from me and asking more stupid questions. This was, again, super cool. I appreciate you running through that with me. I'm getting a starting view on SuperWorld, so I'm super excited about that. So thank you so much for your time.
Hrish - 00:33:01: Yeah, no, thank you so much. And it was great to go into that example. I'd say one final statement to kind of cover that for anyone who's listening is that the beauty of this and a lot of people, back to your original question about the Metaverse, where it was like, hey, where's the Metaverse going? Right? The thing is, what we're doing is we're bringing this virtual context, this location with the physical world. So our goal is how do we get you to enhance your physical life and allow you to do things in the physical world? And so that's an example of how can I buy something virtually this location and then be able to benefit from activities are actually happening by people going to that location in the physical world or maybe just buying tickets or NFTs or joining a DAO virtually. So both things are happening. And that's kind of what the Metaverse is for us, is it's not this totally make believe virtual place, but it's a place that actually has real world relatability, real world utility, and that's what we're focused on.
Tim - 00:34:07: Very cool. Hrish, thank you so much. You DAO Talks is brought to you by Grindery. If you enjoyed this podcast, consider subscribing to DAO Talks on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google, or any other platform you fancy. To find out more about Grindery, visit grindery.io. Thanks for joining me. Tim out.